Discussion about this post

Cynthia B Astle's avatar
Chad Peterson's avatar

"Fleeing entanglement with anybody's religion" misrepresents the founding generation. Most states retained religious establishments for decades after 1787 — Massachusetts didn't disestablish until 1833, Connecticut until 1818. The First Amendment restrained Congress, not the states, and the push for federal non-establishment came heavily from religious dissenters like Baptist John Leland, who wanted protection from a specific establishment, not distance from religion generally. Flee entanglement sounds like they were running away from religion when they were more accurately embracing religion while refusing to have someone else's religion forced on them.

The Deist and Unitarian exclusions from the DoD list aren't equivalent, and treating them as one data point weakens the argument. Unitarian Universalism is a live denomination with ordained clergy and a denomination larger than Presbyterians or Episocopalians. They should be included on the list. Deism today has no clergy, no congregations, and no chaplain-endorsement apparatus — other is a perfectly fine category for it.

I don't find having an American flag in the sanctuary an on-ramp to Christian Nationalism? A flag in a sanctuary is a congregation, on its own initiative, displaying a civic symbol doesn't seem like authoritarianism to me. That isn't state power co-opting religious authority.

"Authoritarian forces" is doing a lot of work as a presupposition rather than a claim. The specific facts cited here — the DoD religious codes list, the chaplain firing — are ordinary exercises of executive authority over military administration, whatever one thinks of how they were used. Methodist leadership seems to want to suggest that Trump is authoritarian while not making the argument. The book from the council of bishops does this move consistently as well. Confusing foreign countries and then sort of implying the same is happening in the US. Is this a policy disagreement or a process that has been taken over? I feel that that the process is still in place for all the trump policies to be changed back, the problem is that we are losing the policy debate. Current policies from the Democratic party on immigration and trans, fully backed by the UMC leadership, are terrible political positions to try to win elections on. Winning elections in a democracy is important.

Mark Stone's avatar

Post modern secular pluralism where the state makes no mention and derives no authority or rights from God has failed. What we as a people need is to return to classical liberal two kingdom theology where both state and church while separate institutions that have no say over the other are both tasked with serving the kingdom of God.

No posts